Downtown ballpark and condos

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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normalthings
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by normalthings »

WoodDraw wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 am
Yeah, my assumption is that the effectively free tickets would go away in a new stadium that's better sized.

If they build some GA bars where people can sit table style I think those would be popular.

But games are expensive over you factor in drinks and food.
wonder if a partial sales redirections could be used instead of a stadium tax.

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

People tend to undersell these types of things in the KC market IMO, I think we'll do better with turning out people to a downtown stadium that some might think. It reminds me of the same kind of thinking of "people won't use a streetcar downtown" when not only did people use it, they blew the projections out the roof. People want to use downtown more than we think. I think there are alot of loud suburban voices that make it seem like there's more a suburban demand than we think.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by WoodDraw »

I don’t disagree with you, but I do lol. I love urban sports, but kc has never experienced before. The east village is largely dead and unknown to most. The whole area needs to be developed.

I can’t remember what thread we discussed in before, but they need to rethink what a baseball stadium can be so the place is always active. I really worry a stadium could kill the area and it’ll be parking, a stadium, and nothing.

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taxi
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by taxi »

The East Village has been nothing for over 20 years.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by shinatoo »

There are something like 8 games a season you can get 5$ tickets.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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GRID
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by GRID »

WoodDraw wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:27 am
I don’t disagree with you, but I do lol. I love urban sports, but kc has never experienced before. The east village is largely dead and unknown to most. The whole area needs to be developed.

I can’t remember what thread we discussed in before, but they need to rethink what a baseball stadium can be so the place is always active. I really worry a stadium could kill the area and it’ll be parking, a stadium, and nothing.
Having been to games at almost every ballpark and living between two of the most urban ballparks in the league (DC and Baltimore), I honestly don't think KC really needs a downtown stadium anymore.

Downtown stadiums are nice but they are not some utopia of economic development. They just aren't. And I think in a slow growth city like KC, a downtown stadium will spur more parking lots than high rise hotels and apartments.

There are only a few cities where growth around a downtown ballpark has reached a point of creating critical mass vs a massive dead zone most of the time. San Diego comes to mind, but they put the stadium in the middle of an already booming area. Denver comes to mind, but even Denver's stadium area took decades to develop and it's still pretty barren compared to the rest of their downtown. LoDo is close but the stadium area itself has been a dead zone till only recently. And Denver has had dozens of towers cranes up every year for decades.

Hardly anything has developed near Camden Yards and they have terrible attendance now. Same with Cleveland. Pittsburgh has a few suburban style hotels near the stadium and lots of parking lots. It's taken decades to fill in the area around Houston's park and it's still over half parking lots.

DC's stadium is in a super fast growing area that would be developing with or without the ballpark.

Nothing has gone up near Sprint Center in KC in ten years. Why would anything go up near a stadium other than parking?

And KC has zero real transit to get to the stadium. The streetcar would bog down and get caught up in traffic frustrating the few people it could move.

Downtown KCMO just does not have the infrastructure. Too many narrow freeways choking everything etc. And there are no longer any good locations for stadium. I still think the east village site is silly. The views will be stupid, there are way too many highways in the area etc. You will have major traffic and parking problems there and parking lots will pop up everywhere, especially east of the the loop.

Reserve a spot in east village for a soccer stadium and let the rest develop. Concentrate on making the sports complex better and build light rail out to it. Everybody that wants to do something downtown after the game can simply take a ten minute train ride.

I think a downtown stadium would be awesome in KC if it were built in the crossroads and KC had a light rail system. But neither are going to happen.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

taxi wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:20 am
The East Village has been nothing for over 20 years.
This^ is the biggest point I’ve been making with it too. People always keep saying “Ughhh we’re gonna have to turn East Village into parking lots and a stadium that’s only used 81 days a year”

But guess what. You know how many days a year East Village is used right now? Zero days. You know how far away we from putting in development that will be used more than a stadium? Decades longer than just filling it with a Royals stadium.

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normalthings
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by normalthings »

The area around STL’s stadium is a dead zone outside of the very recent BPV (a copy and paste P&L). Very similar location to east village. They have a sea of parking lots there in STL.

We need downtown soccer not baseball or football. Baseball is a dying sport

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

By all means, bring in downtown soccer or NBA. I’ve no clue why they decided to build in the middle of nowhere.

Eh. St. Louis made the mistake of relying on the Cardinals to anchor their downtown. KC to its credit atleast isn’t doing that so I think the Royals would fill in nicely.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by GRID »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:27 am
The area around STL’s stadium is a dead zone outside of the very recent BPV (a copy and paste P&L). Very similar location to east village. They have a sea of parking lots there in STL.

We need downtown soccer not baseball or football. Baseball is a dying sport
Baseball is far from dying. That's silly.

But a baseball stadium just does not scale properly with downtown KC. Most of the time it will be half empty and a massive dead footprint. And on days when 30k plus do show up, downtown KC will be a total traffic and parking disaster. Downtown KC barely has any major streets (it really doesn't have any high volume surface streets to get people in and out of the area like most downtown parks do), let alone transit to move people to and from a ballpark before and after games. Downtown KC is nothing but a mess of freeways and very dated and poorly designed ramps to access downtown.

Put a soccer stadium down there. Much smaller footprint. Much smaller maximum capacity. It would be like having another Sprint Center. It would work fine.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

East Village is already empty all the time anyway and will continue to be so for a very long time. So I don't think that's valid.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by WoodDraw »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 pm
East Village is already empty all the time anyway and will continue to be so for a very long time. So I don't think that's valid.
Because everyone is banking the land for a hypothetical stadium. Bit of a catch 22.

Grid is right too. Building a stadium does not mean development. It can actually kill areas if not done properly.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by flyingember »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 pm
East Village is already empty all the time anyway and will continue to be so for a very long time. So I don't think that's valid.
Overland Park was empty all and time and continued to be so until someone decided to build homes, office buildings and the like. That city induced demand though development

It should come as no surprise that giant empty lots are empty all the time

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by alejandro46 »

flyingember wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 pm
East Village is already empty all the time anyway and will continue to be so for a very long time. So I don't think that's valid.
Overland Park was empty all and time and continued to be so until someone decided to build homes, office buildings and the like. That city induced demand though development

It should come as no surprise that giant empty lots are empty all the time
Swope Builders was granted development rights but failed miserably. Now the land is being banked for hopeful stadium development instead of being developed.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Just genuinely curious, but is there anyone here other than myself who actually wants a downtown stadium?

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by WoodDraw »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:41 pm
Just genuinely curious, but is there anyone here other than myself who actually wants a downtown stadium?
Yes. Read a few of the longer threads about it when you have a day to kill.

I'm in favor of it as long as it's part of a development plan. I have a huge worry that they're too addicted to parking revenue and East village is too tempting to just turn into parking and never develop.

All of the lots need to be available for development, the stadium needs to be active year around with a hof museum, stores on the street level, restaurants with temporary outdoor seating,and hospitality spaces. Needs to be landscaped so people can hang out when it's not a game day.

The east crossroads is the more natural fit with all of the bars and breweries, but the community will never go for it. We can't create another p&l. So the question is what is the vision?

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by AlkaliAxel »

My hot take I've always had to solve the "dormant stadium" problems is that they really should move the Negro Leagues Museum across the street from the stadium. Would probably be a nice deal for both Royals and NLBM because both the museum and stadium would share traction from it.

And I'll make one of my famous guarantees- the Negro leagues museum will have far more visitors if it's next to the Royals stadium in the loop. Like, significantly more visitors.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by FangKC »

taxi wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:20 am
The East Village has been nothing for over 20 years.
The area where the P&L District is now was nothing for 40 + years.

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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by chaglang »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:41 pm
Just genuinely curious, but is there anyone here other than myself who actually wants a downtown stadium?
I'm fine with it as long as it's 100% privately financed.

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normalthings
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Re: Future Stadium Plans: Chiefs and Royals

Post by normalthings »

chaglang wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:38 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:41 pm
Just genuinely curious, but is there anyone here other than myself who actually wants a downtown stadium?
I'm fine with it as long as it's 100% privately financed.
Will require a TIF district that encompasses more than just the stadium along with with a STAR bond like product.

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