Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
9
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
21
23%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
13
14%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
9
10%
City/County Wide Rail Project
33
36%
Other
7
8%
 
Total votes: 92

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:36 pm
There won't be any expansions beyond Riverfront and Main Street until there's a source identified for local operating costs. This is essentially just planning for regional funding. The infrastructure bill -- if it's actually approved -- will only provide capital and they won't give it without a clear financial model that covers operating.
TDD can’t work anymore for an E-W route?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:36 pm
There won't be any expansions beyond Riverfront and Main Street until there's a source identified for local operating costs. This is essentially just planning for regional funding. The infrastructure bill -- if it's actually approved -- will only provide capital and they won't give it without a clear financial model that covers operating.
What steps could be taken to get the ball rolling on a regional funding vote? How did they go about the process for union station? Seems that worked out well, and was the only vote that I know of where JOCO actually voted for something downtown.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

TDD can’t work anymore for an E-W route?
Not on its own anywhere else. It's been looked at. Nothing new to report. Not enough real estate value or retails sales to cover the high capital cost and the operating cost. The city's contribution to the TDD is now legislatively capped at $2 million/year.

TDDs are also different in the two states -- Kansas TDDs can't levy special assessments, only sales taxes, and they are approved at the municipal level (so they aren't political subdivisions). It's not even clear that a transit project could be built or operated with a Kansas TDD.

A TDD could augment regional funding, which is a very likely scenario since the capital cost of streetcar (or even BRT) will detract from the operating needs for our sprawling region.
What steps could be taken to get the ball rolling on a regional funding vote? How did they go about the process for union station? Seems that worked out well, and was the only vote that I know of where JOCO actually voted for something downtown.
Again, http://oneridekc.org/

Union Station used the Bistate Commission: https://www.marc.org/Government/Bistate-Commission

It's assumed that this structure could not be used for public transportation funding, which is why a separate "Regional Investment District" was later pursued (but not passed on the Kansas side): https://www.senate.mo.gov/06info/BTS_We ... llID=21436

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

A look at the 2014 TDD map would be important as an addendum

That was Prospect Max construction costs, Main St streetcar and two east side lines. It needed to be that big to raise enough. Think about how the current district can fund Main more or less by itself so the rest was for the other three lines together

Notice the stadiums were included for the sales taxes

http://midtownkcpost.com/judge-rules-st ... sion-vote/

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

How would they fund a E-W streetcar if it's not done by TDD? Wouldn't a route to KU hospital have enough in the TDD to fund it? Was the stadiums included in streetcar going E-W too?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:23 pm
How would they fund a E-W streetcar if it's not done by TDD? Wouldn't a route to KU hospital have enough in the TDD to fund it? Was the stadiums included in streetcar going E-W too?
Regional or County sales taxes + a TDD in areas along a new route and not already in the current TDD

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

Is there a possibility for 100 or 80% capital grants in the stimulus?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:24 pm
Is there a possibility for 100 or 80% capital grants in the stimulus?
We wouldn’t build any pro forma on that until it becomes law.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:06 pm
alejandro46 wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:34 pm
Interesting KU Med is getting involved. $75k to get a multi-million dollar streetcar run to their building seems like a good deal. I will listen to what they say, but still think 12th st. is better way to get to Kansas. It's going to be hard to add density to east of Main st. on 12th or 39th st.
I view this as a way to get to JoCo not kck proper. Going down the 12th street viaduct will not be cheap or easy....
Yes, of course, I would hazard a guess you'd pretty much have to rebuild the whole viaduct.

I had always figured any OP expansion would logically go down SM Parkway to Metcalf. Instead of starting at Plaza, there are some good parking lots for redevelopment and a few more dense developments like Woodside from KU Med to SM parkway.

The primary reason to go to OP to begin with it to get them to vote for funding, a regional vote is the only way we can fund anything.

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

The current model of streetcar is about the same weight as a fully-loaded tractor trailer. If a viaduct is handling over-the-road freight it can certainly handle streetcar.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:42 am
The current model of streetcar is about the same weight as a fully-loaded tractor trailer. If a viaduct is handling over-the-road freight it can certainly handle streetcar.
Math says otherwise.

Train = 78,000 pounds
https://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar/faqs/
With full CAF given load of 207 people + driver. Assuming average weight of 175lbs per person and their stuff (purses, backpacks, strollers)
Maximum realistic streetcar load would be in the ballpark of 115,000lbs
https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servic ... .php?p=266

The legal load limit for a semi is 80,000 pounds. Over that a special permit is needed and they would plan a route based on load limits of structures.
https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... ight_0.pdf


So we can't assume the streetcar could handle the viaduct today because of how much over weight it could be. And my guess is 95% of trucks and 100% of oversized loads take 670

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

You should totally apply for your PE stamp.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:30 am
You should totally apply for your PE stamp.
Making up numbers isn't helpful.

and there's 2020 documents showing the bridge could receive federal funding for work because it's condition is bad enough

https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... 0OTO_0.pdf

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

Weight aside, I wouldn’t want to invest all of that into putting rail on the Viaduct and then having to rebuild or take it off line during a major renovation in 10 or 20 years

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by GRID »

Is it true that if they used the HOA Bridge, that it would be single tracked? If so, that seems like a really long stretch of single track.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCPowercat »

why would it be single track? Maybe I missed where that was said somewhere? That would be a long stretch

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grovester
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by grovester »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:30 am
You should totally apply for your PE stamp.
PE - Pedantic Engineering.

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alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:38 am
why would it be single track? Maybe I missed where that was said somewhere? That would be a long stretch
Yes, it was originally scoped in North Rail as single track I believe to reduce costs and to keep car traffic. I believe that bridge also is up for an overhaul in the next 5-10yr plus with the new Buck bridge, they'll study what it would take to run double track plus appropriate bike/walking lanes over the HoA. It shouldn't have much impact on traffic, that bridge is always very low traffic when I drive over it and avg speeds hit like 70+ in a 45 so it could use some traffic calming.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCPowercat »

double track or bust

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:48 am
KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:38 am
why would it be single track? Maybe I missed where that was said somewhere? That would be a long stretch
Yes, it was originally scoped in North Rail as single track I believe to reduce costs and to keep car traffic. I believe that bridge also is up for an overhaul in the next 5-10yr plus with the new Buck bridge, they'll study what it would take to run double track plus appropriate bike/walking lanes over the HoA. It shouldn't have much impact on traffic, that bridge is always very low traffic when I drive over it and avg speeds hit like 70+ in a 45 so it could use some traffic calming.
What's your source for an overhaul? I haven't seen any plans for this and would like to see them.
I believe that idea was the track would replace the bike lane and build a new bike lane further over. the SB side is three lanes, the NB side two. They wanted the track on the outside of the bridge for reasons I forget.

Most the traffic is north of 10th Ave and that's entirely caused by a bad traffic signal setup. Swift is usually completely empty while Burlington is a parking lot.

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