Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
9
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
21
23%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
13
14%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
9
10%
City/County Wide Rail Project
33
36%
Other
7
8%
 
Total votes: 92

flyingember
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
We are already building a very big and nice station at 51st street. I feel like the only direction is south and not back up and over to troost. Maybe down CC ROW to 63rd and then over to the Zoo
There’s no reason it can’t double back to MLK Blvd.

Rockhurst, Stowers, 49-63 and a bunch of retail on Troost

vs a rich people’s greenway and shopping center with low density homes

Just the appearance of going by a sushi place over a dollar store would reinforce it being for well off people

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
We are already building a very big and nice station at 51st street. I feel like the only direction is south and not back up and over to troost. Maybe down CC ROW to 63rd and then over to the Zoo
Agreed. I was kinda shocked they claim there isn't an appetite for going down Wornall.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by shinatoo »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:20 pm
normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
We are already building a very big and nice station at 51st street. I feel like the only direction is south and not back up and over to troost. Maybe down CC ROW to 63rd and then over to the Zoo
Agreed. I was kinda shocked they claim there isn't an appetite for going down Wornall.
There isn't.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:20 pm
normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
We are already building a very big and nice station at 51st street. I feel like the only direction is south and not back up and over to troost. Maybe down CC ROW to 63rd and then over to the Zoo
Agreed. I was kinda shocked they claim there isn't an appetite for going down Wornall.
Brookside and South Plaza voted against it in 2014 to the same level as the east side.

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Ok, in 2014…before we even had any streetcar? I guarantee you 95% of people against it in 2014 have a more positive opinion now than they did then. I think we’re past the “we gotta sell the streetcar concept to them!” to the “we gotta decide who gets to have it” phase now.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 pm
Ok, in 2014…before we even had any streetcar? I guarantee you 95% of people against it in 2014 have a more positive opinion now than they did then. I think we’re past the “we gotta sell the streetcar concept to them!” to the “we gotta decide who gets to have it” phase now.
Just a few pages back you said people wouldn’t have a good opinion until after the expansion opens.

viewtopic.php?p=626601#p626601

Apparently people both have a huge positive opinion beyond what ANYTHING gets and they can’t possibly have a positive opinion yet and need more experience with it

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:56 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 pm
Ok, in 2014…before we even had any streetcar? I guarantee you 95% of people against it in 2014 have a more positive opinion now than they did then. I think we’re past the “we gotta sell the streetcar concept to them!” to the “we gotta decide who gets to have it” phase now.
Just a few pages back you said people wouldn’t have a good opinion until after the expansion opens.

viewtopic.php?p=626601#p626601

Apparently people both have a huge positive opinion beyond what ANYTHING gets and they can’t possibly have a positive opinion yet and need more experience with it
I said that as an opinion for people on *mass rail* not the streetcar. Yes, the suburbanites needs to experience a lot of streetcar to realize we can take the next step to mass-rail, in my opinion. I think right now any neighborhood would take the streetcar if they can get it. For Light rail, I don’t think we’ll get full support attitude until after Main extension shows people the power of it.
Last edited by AlkaliAxel on Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Riverite »

Could run it down 55th to troost, I don’t much see the point in running it all the way to brook side. One of the main functions for the streetcar is the development potential which brook side has zero of. Troost on the other hand has a lot. I do think it would be useful in Waldo, but going through that many single family neighborhoods that will never density seems a bit unnecessary

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

So Wornall is just screwed because we can't cross the streetcar through Brookside?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Riverite »

It’s not screwed it’s just not as good of an option. There are other things we could do to link them up. Such as more frequent buses. It’s not like troost is all that far and won’t spur development over. Maybe they could even make a separate extension in the future that comes down Gregory. Brook side is a huge block and should’ve passed it when they had the chance. It’s just not really worth it to run rail in single family neighborhoods which will never be more than that

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:00 am
It’s not screwed it’s just not as good of an option. There are other things we could do to link them up. Such as more frequent buses. It’s not like troost is all that far and won’t spur development over. Maybe they could even make a separate extension in the future that comes down Gregory. Brook side is a huge block and should’ve passed it when they had the chance. It’s just not really worth it to run rail in single family neighborhoods which will never be more than that
Exactly. Look back at the NextRail study. Areas with large development potential scored the highest. Brookside has the Trolly Trail right of way going for it, but that is it's strongest point.

Any line going directly east is a better next expansion. Independence Ave and 31st/Linwood rank substantially higher. I would then advocate for 12th St into West Bottoms. All areas have some existing density as well as a lot of potential for future growth. Brookside is already well developed and can't grow that much just based upon the SFH and low rise retail that's already there.

Hottest take, even the Northland, once you get past the expensive river crossing, has more development potential in NKC, along North Oak and Barry Road.

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf
Last edited by alejandro46 on Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by WoodDraw »

Not a chance in hell brookside votes to let rail anywhere close to them 🤣

There are just more important fights to pick and better use of money. Maybe someday

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

The way to get votes is access to jobs.

It's why NKC works so well as a destination. Just based on ridership potential it's not there at all, the line is about bringing people to NKC.

It's why I so like the idea of crossing I-35 to get to NKC Hospital.
It's why I like a line to KU Med, for the jobs.
Both are 24 hour jobs centers

A paired expansion of NKC and Indep Ave could be an easier sell than either alone. NKC is closer than UMKC to much of this cooridor.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Riverite »

alejandro46 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:28 am
Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:00 am
It’s not screwed it’s just not as good of an option. There are other things we could do to link them up. Such as more frequent buses. It’s not like troost is all that far and won’t spur development over. Maybe they could even make a separate extension in the future that comes down Gregory. Brook side is a huge block and should’ve passed it when they had the chance. It’s just not really worth it to run rail in single family neighborhoods which will never be more than that
Exactly. Look back at the NextRail study. Areas with large development potential scored the highest. Brookside has the Trolly Trail right of way going for it, but that is it's strongest point.

Any line going directly east is a better next expansion. Independence Ave and 31st/Linwood rank substantially higher. I would then advocate for 12th St into West Bottoms. All areas have some existing density as well as a lot of potential for future growth. Brookside is already well developed and can't grow that much just based upon the SFH and low rise retail that's already there.

Hottest take, even the Northland, once you get past the expensive river crossing, has more development potential in NKC, along North Oak and Barry Road.

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf
I don't think that's a hot take at all. If they get over the river NKC will build up and has appetite for it. I'm guessing if they run it up North Oak, KC and Gladstone will do the same. Northland is not anti development at all like Brookside. Their problem is that they are too laissez faire with it which has led to a severe lack of density.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Riverite »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:21 am
The way to get votes is access to jobs.

It's why NKC works so well as a destination. Just based on ridership potential it's not there at all, the line is about bringing people to NKC.

It's why I so like the idea of crossing I-35 to get to NKC Hospital.
It's why I like a line to KU Med, for the jobs.
Both are 24 hour jobs centers

A paired expansion of NKC and Indep Ave could be an easier sell than either alone. NKC is closer than UMKC to much of this cooridor.
A paired expansion also helps galvanise support it stops both the northland and east side from feeling like they are left out.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:09 am
flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:21 am
The way to get votes is access to jobs.

It's why NKC works so well as a destination. Just based on ridership potential it's not there at all, the line is about bringing people to NKC.

It's why I so like the idea of crossing I-35 to get to NKC Hospital.
It's why I like a line to KU Med, for the jobs.
Both are 24 hour jobs centers

A paired expansion of NKC and Indep Ave could be an easier sell than either alone. NKC is closer than UMKC to much of this cooridor.
A paired expansion also helps galvanise support it stops both the northland and east side from feeling like they are left out.
Linwood + Main + 39th as a single line could do well for the same reason. Linwood east scored high for redevelopment in that Nextrail document. If it reaches the VA that's two hospitals on a single line, that would be a quality route for the east side and would be one transfer away from Main.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Riverite »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:32 am
Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:09 am
flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:21 am
The way to get votes is access to jobs.

It's why NKC works so well as a destination. Just based on ridership potential it's not there at all, the line is about bringing people to NKC.

It's why I so like the idea of crossing I-35 to get to NKC Hospital.
It's why I like a line to KU Med, for the jobs.
Both are 24 hour jobs centers

A paired expansion of NKC and Indep Ave could be an easier sell than either alone. NKC is closer than UMKC to much of this cooridor.
A paired expansion also helps galvanise support it stops both the northland and east side from feeling like they are left out.
Linwood + Main + 39th as a single line could do well for the same reason. It scored high for redevelopment in that Nextrail document. If it reaches the VA that's two hospitals on a single line, that would be a quality route for the east side and would be one transfer away from Main.
What about Linwood at VA down to Broadway up to 39th and over to KU med

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:36 am
flyingember wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:32 am
Riverite wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:09 am


A paired expansion also helps galvanise support it stops both the northland and east side from feeling like they are left out.
Linwood + Main + 39th as a single line could do well for the same reason. It scored high for redevelopment in that Nextrail document. If it reaches the VA that's two hospitals on a single line, that would be a quality route for the east side and would be one transfer away from Main.
What about Linwood at VA down to Broadway up to 39th and over to KU med
I wouldn't argue against such a line having a N-S segment on Broadway, Troost or Prospect.

My thought was to make use of existing track so you could pick up both lines from multiple stops. Someone connecting from Armour could choose E-W too.

Also, by sharing track it also enables construction/crash alternatives splitting the line in half. A stop near Linwood and Gillham with a crossover for EB to WB allows for a Linwood to UMKC route to operate temporarily if needed without going all the way to the east terminus

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Which one of these 3 is the one clogging up the most space on Main?

https://twitter.com/kclightrail/status/ ... 50949?s=20

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

AlkaliAxel wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:47 pm
Which one of these 3 is the one clogging up the most space on Main?

https://twitter.com/kclightrail/status/ ... 50949?s=20
Probably water or sewer due to the depth and they're mostly full replacements (rather than relocation).

You call it clogging, I call it traffic calming.

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