Alternative Energy

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
FlippantCitizen
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FlippantCitizen »

ToDactivist wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm
The best incentive for adding solar would be for the federal and state governments to give tax credits to individual homeowners and businesses that add solar to their properties. This creates additional demand for the solar panel industry, and encourage further battery storage research and development. Then the market would take care of the rest. Many homeowners need that additional tax credit to justify the expense of installing solar.

Our country also needs to do this to incentivize people to purchase electric vehicles that can be at least partially charged from their own on-site solar.

State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
Given inflation and the fact the gas tax hasn't changed since the 90s combined with fuel effiecency gains of vehicles since then, we are already failing badly on that question. We definitely need better funding mechanisms for road maintenance going forward.

flyingember
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FlippantCitizen wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:01 pm
Given inflation and the fact the gas tax hasn't changed since the 90s combined with fuel effiecency gains of vehicles since then, we are already failing badly on that question. We definitely need better funding mechanisms for road maintenance going forward.
A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.

FlippantCitizen
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FlippantCitizen »

flyingember wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm

A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.
How would a variable mileage tax work? Would an EZ pass like device be required in every car? Compliance seems like it would be a big big issue. Perhaps privacy and data issues as well? Definitely agree we need to tie the price of driving to actual miles driven but the structure should probably be set up to make the burden less on EVs just so we keep good incentives for people to transition into these (for now) more expensive vehicles. Also there's a can of worms involved when the people who can least afford more efficient vehicles get taxed more for not having them. re: France's yellow vest movement. No simple answers.

shinatoo
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by shinatoo »

Toll roads and state-wide sales tax. Not my favorite but not sure how you do anything else without making it super complicated.

Of course, my first choice would be a land tax, but that is gaining zero traction.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

flyingember
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FlippantCitizen wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:41 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm

A higher registration flat tax
A variable mileage tax paid with registration
An outside the home fueling/charging tax regardless of fuel type. gallons for gas + diesel + hydrogen, kilowatts for vehicles

The charging tax could cover expanded vehicles like e-bikes that could be recharged at a station too. Since they'll charge so little compared to a car it's the same scale of paying relative to your fuel requirements. On the other end, an electric truck with huge batteries would be like fueling a giant diesel tank.
Compliance seems like it would be a big big issue.
How to easily track mileage is actually quite easy, you do it on the honor system.

If it's a dealer trade in they record your old car mileage and it's in the paperwork to get a new title. They look up the old car registration and you pay your final bill during the title transfer based on the two numbers.

If it's a private sale, both parties record the mileage on their paperwork. You have to send in your paperwork to the state already for a private sale so switch this to online or in person with your new title where you pay your remaining bill there. If there's a discrepancy or you forget to pay it's caught based on who does and doesn't report what numbers.

If you lie on the mileage, that it's higher when you buy third party and the other person puts the real number, you pay more in fines. They won't want to pay more by saying it's higher than it is.
If you sell and try to say it's lower you pay more because the buyer will want to use the real number.

If it's never registered and the seller never pays, and it's pulled over you both pay a fine (bigger for the buyer), so if you sell you're encouraged to pay the tax asap.

Look forward five years. If you've been lieing for years your mileage gap will be very big and you'll pay the full amount in the end.

About the only place the state loses money is an out of state sale. So there has to be a process to record when a vehicle leaves the state and if you're not submitting this you pay a penalty when you go to register a new vehicle in state.

If the person moves out of state too, let it be. Why would they come back and pay a tax to a state they moved out of?

Without active enforcement some loss from the dishonest won't matter for the overall gain.

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FangKC
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FangKC »

ToDactivist wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm
...
State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
I think we'll have to tax based on vehicle's mileage and not what the fuel source is. When you renew your license, the mileage traveled will be recorded and you will taxes based on that.

The only problem with that is that low-income vehicle owners pay with each tank, and they are essentially paying-as-they-go. Paying when they renew license tags means they are paying all at once, and may not have that chunk of money available. That might create a burden for them.

There could be a utility tax placed on your vehicle charger, that is separate from your house usage. Instead of paying per gallon for gas, you would pay a fee per KW hour on your car charger.

However, I think it will probably be the mileage tax on vehicle tags is the most likely method.

flyingember
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:01 pm
ToDactivist wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
FangKC wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:53 pm
...
State governments also need to change laws and regulations to allow property owners to do this without penalty. States should mandate utility companies to buy back extra solar capacity from private parties, and reduce their reliance on fossil fuels. Many states are doing the opposite and allowing utilities to charge solar users additional fees.
how would you propose taxing EV's for road use since today that is primarily the use of the gas tax? subsidies often have unintended consequences.
I think we'll have to tax based on vehicle's mileage and not what the fuel source is. When you renew your license, the mileage traveled will be recorded and you will taxes based on that.

The only problem with that is that low-income vehicle owners pay with each tank, and they are essentially paying-as-they-go. Paying when they renew license tags means they are paying all at once, and may not have that chunk of money available. That might create a burden for them.

There could be a utility tax placed on your vehicle charger, that is separate from your house usage. Instead of paying per gallon for gas, you would pay a fee per KW hour on your car charger.

However, I think it will probably be the mileage tax on vehicle tags is the most likely method.
poor people might not have a chunk of money to afford a vehicle charger, they'll be paying as they go outside the home

alejandro46
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by alejandro46 »

We already pay taxes on the electricity we buy. The additional "EV Fees" are just money grabs by the states, even though most are fine paying a fair share.

Nobody needs an EV charger, they can be plugged into a washer plug. There used to be a tax rebate to install a charger but I think the funds ran out.

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FangKC
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Re: Alternative Energy

Post by FangKC »

The taxes we pay on electricity currently don't have a funding split to funnel money to the state highway program. The legislature would have to raise electrical taxes a certain amount to fund that.

The reason I said the transportation tax would meter off the home charger is so the added tax would not be on the KW hours for the house, just the vehicles.

There will also be homeowners that don't have a car, and their home electrical tax should not be taxed for highways in the same way that people who don't own cars don't pay gasoline taxes.

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